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Yet again more migraine debate :)



Just to make this very clear:

I personally believe MAV involves the inner ear and believing this is ‘only a migraine’ is a distortion of reality.

Saying someone has MAV does not rule out inner ear involvement, it’s merely saying their condition matches the published set of diagnosis criteria (developed by a committee of oto-neurologists).

Some believe ‘Vestibular Migraine’ only involves the brain. There is zero science to prove that. It conveniently ignores the massive proportion of sufferers that have very obvious, significant ear symptoms.

The only proven science that exists is epidemiological studies that show that people respond to migraine prophylaxis. I appreciate and agree with those findings: people do. The rest is hypothesis. And it’s become a dangerous obsession in the discipline. Dangerous because it may be misdirecting research and research funding.

Remember: Big pharma makes a packet out of selling pills to chronic patients and there is no incentive to cure them!

The neurologists make a packet from consulting chronic MAV patients. There is no financial incentive to fully cure them! (but that of course would be incredibly unethical, but there you go!)

I had clear hearing loss and my oto-neuro diagnosed me with MAV.

MAV is indistinguishable from some forms of (“atypical”) Meniere’s disease (depending on what criteria you use). MAV is indistinguishable from Secondary Hydrops (hence the scope of this site).

The fight over a diagnosis is futile and superficial, because the diagnosis itself is superficial.

The real issue is finding a protocol that beats the condition you and I have.

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Oh don’t be silly, you could say that with any chronic patient / doctor relationship. You don’t really believe that do you?

There certainly is some truth to this. But I’ve heard this argument a thousand times and yet almost all of us on here have benefited from or know someone who have benefited from “big pharma”. We are all human and get chronic conditions, so there is always some incentive in health care to get it right.


Sorry I should clarify: “financial” incentive. Of course most doctors want to do the best for their patients and are simply constrained by available treatments. But a financial incentive does not exist. Just stating facts. And I’m sure this has a bearing on the industry. It does allow for a rather ‘cosy’ existence for and sustains a large population of private specialists.


Well, I’m surprised. I’m not as cynical as I thought I was. I really cannot believe there’s any conspiracy that’s organising it so chronic patients are kept that way so pharma companies and specialists can make good money out of them. I know the argument for nobody looking too hard to find cure for migraine has always been the painkiller drug manufacturers profits but … personally I think alot of it would be lack of PR representation. Cancer, Heart trouble, Demetia, Autism and so on all have loud voiced activists. Other chronic conditions have none. There’s little interest and it’s expensive, complex and often not terminal. Nobody much complains so it’s out of the public eye and nobody much cares, except the sufferers and their immediates. Each chronic disease needs a well known spokesman. Each needs an Angelina Jolie, or, in UK, a member of the Royal Family to develop it. That’ll shift them. Helen


Oh sure. I don’t believe there is any conspiracy. Just a de facto form of mass apathy or at worst complacency.

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google for vestibular migraine in google scholar for last 10 years from every single country in the globe you will find 100s of papers and they all say the same thing. Migraine causes dizziness. EEG, PET and you have zillions of brain telemetry have been deployed to prove it. I can share at least 10 papers. It’s ok to have a contrarian view but don’t blame science.


Migraine may contribute to dizziness (and impair compensation). 24//7? Doubt it. Fluctuating or permanent hearing loss? Doubt it. What’s causing the migraine? Never explained. It’s a dead end explanation.

My main problem with this shallow explanation is it attempts to explain a systemic problem focusing almost entirely on the brain. That doesn’t sit at all well with me.


Chronic migraine non-vestibular and vestibular can be 24/7 ! There are people here with visual aura for years and months and migraine causes those


no-one’s denying people have this opinion, but where is the proof? It’s just a belief. A belief is not science.


a person has nystagmus and dizziness. PET picks up migraine. Meclizine is used knock out both ears as a vestibular suppressant but dizziness remains. Hence no ear issues. Results from all VNG, ECoG, VEMP test don’t cluster. Migraine prophylatic works and dizziness eases.

This proof is good enough for me ! Empirical evidence is real science !

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“Migraine” prophylactic medicine works - inherent bias right there.

Sure PET scan picks up migraine, no denying MAVers get migraines!

Meclizine is used knock out both ears as a vestibular suppressant but dizziness remains - Really, you think if you knock out both ears you wouldn’t feel dizzy?!!

What caused the first migraine to occur?


MAV protocol is no different from migraine protocol. Not a single thing. At the end of the day the protocol fixes migraine and migraine alone !

What causes migraine ?
what causes cancer?
what causes parkinson ?
what causes alzheimers ?

We have lot of sound evidence based theories for all of the above. Do i care ? No . What do i care ? Squelch the migraine and i get better. That’s good enough for me.

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you see, shallow, incomplete explanation


[quote=“turnitaround, post:24, topic:16943, full:true”]

Yep. Dizzy people just going on and on being dizzy is pretty boring … to the general public, and not gripping headlines at all. Sudden dramatic breakthroughs which quickly save life or IVF resulting in quads is The Stuff people crave. Helen


ofcourse i do. It works well for BPPV and other ear disorders including PLF according to Dr.Hain ! It does not work well for central migraine disorders ! Why else do you think people takes benzos instead of meclizine for vestibular migraine ?


I think migraine is an incurable condition. You can certainly manage it but nobody can thump their chest and say they cured it. Some lucky folks get a remission on their own, happy for them. The rest of us it is a life long project using a combination of meds, lifestyle, sleep, exercise and diet !

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That’s not the question, as you could ask that question for people who have chronic migraines but not MAV, and yes those people clearly exist. The question is whether a migraine can cause dizziness and/or hearing loss.

The problem I keep seeing in your argument is that you equate migraine to only a brain thing (electrical disturbance) and thus you completely neglect the fact that migraine effects other physiologies such as vascular that could affect the inner ear. I just don’t see why your definition of migraine is so limited to a “brain” thing.


Again that’s a hypothesis used to explain the coexistence of the symptoms.

But glad to see someone who believes it’s involving more than just the brain. I wholeheartedly agree.

Still looking for the source of the kick off

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Btw this is a good example. Some new science suggests the source problem for Parkinson’s sufferers may be in the gut!


Migraine is not a homogeneous condition as Dr.Hain suggests and the kick can be endocrine, stress, metabolic or even a genetic predisposition. There are a zillion papers for each of these. Why there are even papers which says migraine starts in the gut and can be fixed via probiotics and prebiotics and taking care of gut heath fixes migraine for some. vitamin D and B12 has fixed VM for some. If everyone had the same kick causing the migraine then the same med would work for everyone. Hence leading to med trials untill each one finds his potion or should i say poison.