Running with MAV

Exercise, Lifestyle & Travel 🧘‍♀️
21

She felt better with 1 acup. So I talked about my experience with cupping. Say it was a placebo, why take that away from someone, better than trialling a million meds with no success. Some days Im sure we all would pay $100 for a few great days. You could always say… research shows its bunk, but if it makes you feel better than have at it…

I see a lot of Passionate people on this board. Nothing wrong with passion, its actually considered an attractive quality in people.

Scott, you and I will just go rounds, and that’s the last thing I need. I do value your opinion and your facts. This is just an area we dont agree on. But
the way you throw in your little stabs at the end… I mean really…?? We think differently, so you try and belittle me with horse shit comments, and your detox foot crap. WTF…

Oh by the way even HAIN recommends it on his page in several areas. Hmmmm. But what does he know, right.
Some areas he says research show it works and ONE area said it works a little better than placebo. Sooo I guess he should smoke some shit too?

22

Kristina, I wasnt having a pop at you when I said “Scott your new girlfriend is too passionate” it was a joke about the photo he put up, I was saying the photo was of him, after a session with his latest girlfriend (unless that is you, it had nothing to do with you). My comment was solely aimed at Scott, he is used to it from some of us. I am totally not involved in the disagreement about the cupping, I have no opinion on it one way or the other not having tried it :slight_smile:

Christine

23

Wait, Scott, exercise is a big trigger? For some people it’s helpful for MAV though, right? I know I can’t do some exercise (like elliptical, too bouncy), but I usually feel pretty good after a workout.

24

Kristina, the reason I added something as ridiculous as smoking dried horse shit or using Thai foot pads when discussing cupping is because there is no difference among these potential “therapies” and it’s the only way I can think of to get the point across to you so that you realise what I’m trying to convey. All three are equally ridiculous, baseless and without evidence. This is an evidence-based forum for treating MAV and as stated clearly in the mvertigo constitution “… how best to manage migrainous vertigo and MM using the very best science-based evidence. Note that while there is absolutely no problem with discussing “alternative” therapies at mvertigo, be prepared for the treatment to be examined thoroughly and critically if there is no evidence to support it.”

If you can bring some compelling evidence to the table I’ll change my mind about cupping as would others. It’s that simple. Until then you may as well smoke horse shit Cuban cigars, throw charcoal on your cereal every morning, snort fairie dust and wear Thai foot pads soaked in bamboo sap to treat your migraine.

Then you go on to say, “Say it was a placebo, why take that away from someone, better than trialling a million meds with no success.” Have you totally lost your marbles? Are you telling people to consider cupping over proven migraine meds because they might have had no success on a med trial?

25

Hi Cassada,

The exercise thing is really tricky. For some it triggers migraine yet it is something that is necessary for migraine management too. The key is to introduce it slowly and increase it incrementally when a person is stable enough. I’ll post an interesting paper later today that shows how it worked in a group of migraineurs. Basically, it’s like introducing a med – starting low and going slow.

26

— Begin quote from “scott”

Have you totally lost your marbles? Are you telling people to consider cupping over proven migraine meds because they might have had no success on a med trial?

— End quote

Nope, my marbles are all in tact, you?

The acupuncture was for a stiff neck. Never said it works on migraines. I said trialing a bunch of meds, because I have tried anti inflammatory’s they dont work for some neck issues.
Im saying, that no matter what the heck it is, if it works dont stop. AND if something is working, might as well try something more in the same category.
(as cupping is still acup, but not needles) Its not like its some crazy wierd thing on an info commerial at 3am. No, sometimes it’s actually located in a doctor office. So your silly things you say to compare it, are far fetched. And if you want to argue that Acu is far fetched too, then fine, your examples are still not even close. So dont try and act like you were merely being facetious, you were being sarcastic on a somewhat caulky level. For the record, you frustrate me to. :slight_smile:
Again agree to disagree. There are way better topics to argue about anyway.

27

— Begin quote from “Victoria”

Not true, you totally can. I’m drinking an awesome Placebo Effect right now. Wynn’s Coonawarra cabernet sauvignon.

— End quote

:lol:

28

— Begin quote from “scott”

Hi Cassada,

The exercise thing is really tricky. For some it triggers migraine yet it is something that is necessary for migraine management too. The key is to introduce it slowly and increase it incrementally when a person is stable enough. I’ll post an interesting paper later today that shows how it worked in a group of migraineurs. Basically, it’s like introducing a med – starting low and going slow.

— End quote

Interesting, Scott. I’d like to read that paper. For the first time since my MAV began, I’ve been exercising on a regular basis. The past few months I’ve been going to the gym 2-3 times per week but lately I’ve been going nearly every day. I work with a trainer every few weeks (who is great about finding exercises that don’t make me dizzy), and I’ve found I crave exercise now. Hopefully in the long run, it will help with the MAV (if not, at least it’s good for many other reasons!). However, I don’t think I could have done it in the beginning of MAV when I was at my worst…I pretty much just laid down all day back then :frowning:

Have you heard of anyone’s MAV getting significantly better with just an exercise routine?

29

Bottom line Kristina – you are free to tell everyone about whatever alt therapy you use here. It’s up to you what you spend your money and time on. If you feel relaxed afterwards with welts and blown blood vessels on your back and it gives you a temporary placebo effect, great, but please don’t come on here suggesting that someone should consider cupping in the face of a failed medication trial for a migraine solution (you seem to have conveniently forgotten that neck pain is just as migrainous as headache). That is not helping anyone on this forum.

You clearly have no solid bench mark with which to assess any therapy but instead use indicators such as “my insurance company covers it” and it was located in “a doctor’s office”. I’d love to meet a general practitioner using cupping! Why don’t you do yourself a favour and read the literature for a change?

As I said before, this is an evidence-based forum and will remain that way. If it does not suit you and you feel frustrated by this (or me) there are plenty of forums out there who support everything from cupping to daily spoonfuls of turmeric to mega-dosing on vitamin C until you’re literally filling your pants like a newborn baby. Might be more your cup of tea there.

S

30

Hi Cassada,

Sorry, at work at the mo but will upload asap. Pretty sure it’s linked on here somewhere else … try using the search for exercise related posts until I can get back to you. :smiley:

31

Butterflygirl and Cassada – here’s the info I was thinking about for you guys to check out. One study shows exercise compared with Topamax and the other just exercise in general in a group of migraineurs.

http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewItem.aspx?ItemId=113451&CultureCode=en

“The results show that the number of migraines fell in all three groups. Interestingly, there was no difference in the preventative effect between the three treatments. Our conclusion is that exercise can act as an alternative to relaxation and topiramate when it comes to preventing migraines, and is particularly appropriate for patients who are unwilling or unable to take preventative medicines.”

32

Exercise is a really important part of my personal treatment plan (along with the meds etc) - I definitely feel worse on the days I don’t shlep my butt to the gym - even if I don’t go 80 or 100%. :smiley:

33

Very interesting Scott, thank you. As the second article mentioned, I will make sure to have a proper warm up/cool down, and not exercise too vigorously, so as to not make exercise a trigger. However, the fact that the first article said that “exercise is just as good as drugs” seems like an awfully big stretch to me, especially since only one medication was used in the trial. Of course, exercise can be a great tool in raising our threshold, but I certainly don’t think it’s going to solve all our problems! (at least not for most of us)

Anyway, I would have thought that one would have to exercise daily to get the benefits, but it seems like even jut a few times per week is helpful. I wish I knew if there is a best time of day to exercise; that is, if working out in the mornings will prevent migraine throughout the day, or if exercising in the evening will also still prevent migraine the next day. It’s hard for me to have a consistent workout routine; my gym time is just based on me and my husband’s schedule that day, or when certain classes are offered.

Speaking of classes, I took a new exercise class last night. It was in a room with fluorescent lighting, the music was really loud, and we had to lie down on our backs. Not a good combo! My head was pounding within minutes (and I rarely get the headache part of MAV). Thankfully it was a very short class, so I could get out of there! I think I’ll stick to my regular exercises, which don’t bother me!

34

Kristina, I hope you don’t leave the site, or sharing your experiences…I believe in prayer and I don’t think it is scientifically proven to work…I just like hearing and reading ALL experiences of people going through this crap…good luck with your quest for relief!

35

— Begin quote from “Kristina”

She felt better with 1 acup. So I talked about my experience with cupping. Say it was a placebo, why take that away from someone, better than trialling a million meds with no success. Some days Im sure we all would pay $100 for a few great days. You could always say… research shows its bunk, but if it makes you feel better than have at it…

I see a lot of Passionate people on this board. Nothing wrong with passion, its actually considered an attractive quality in people.

Scott, you and I will just go rounds, and that’s the last thing I need. I do value your opinion and your facts. This is just an area we dont agree on. But
the way you throw in your little stabs at the end… I mean really…?? We think differently, so you try and belittle me with horse shit comments, and your detox foot crap. WTF…

Oh by the way even HAIN recommends it on his page in several areas. Hmmmm. But what does he know, right.
Some areas he says research show it works and ONE area said it works a little better than placebo. Sooo I guess he should smoke some shit too?

— End quote

Kristina, I’ve been going for acup for years and years. I finally have found a doctor who is providing a treatment that works. I had been sick every other month for two years, really sick. Since going to this doc, I havent’ been sick once in two years! My vertigo is all but gone, and at one of my appts, I mentioned my neck pain, so he treated that, and one treatment totally cleared up the terrible neck stiffness I’d have for months.

Scott, I am very skeptical of alternative medicine, but my health insurance covers it, so I hardly doubt in this current economy, that health insurance companies would cover a practice that provides no benefit to its patients, other than a placebo effect. Like any western medicine, if you don’t believe it will work, it probably won’t have nearly the same impact.

36

Hi butterfly girl,

Glad the acupuncture makes you feel better. If you feel it helps you manage this and it’s covered by your insurance then you may as well keep at it.

As mentioned before, however, just because a health insurance company covers it does not mean it has any real efficacy. It is certainly not a criterion to use when you are weighing up whether or not a treatment is valid. For that you need controlled clinical trials. Insurance companies are market driven and not run by medical doctors or scientists. In other words, they do not support it because they think it really works beyond a placebo effect but because of demand. For example, the National Health Service (NHS) in the UK continues to support homeopathy despite it being condemned and proven to be useless beyond placebo. It’s simply plain water and thus quackery of the highest order yet, hey, they apparently cover it! Amazing really.

For me personally, it would really irk me to the core knowing that my taxes were being funneled into junk therapies like that when they could be used for medicines that actually deliver both a real effect plus a placebo. Lastly, no one should be suggesting (as Kristina has) that instead of using evidence-based medicine (because of all those horrid side effects she remarked on) that people suffering with MAV should instead focus on alternative medicine. In most cases it simply does not work beyond placebo (of course there is reasonable evidence for such things like butter bur etc). And really, why do they call it “alternative” anyway? Alternative to what? Something that actually works? If it works, it’s medicine. There is no other/alternative side.

Not surprisingly, I’ve yet to meet anyone on any forum who successfully and truly managed an intractable case of MAV using acupuncture, cupping and homeopathy.

Best,
Scott

37

— Begin quote from “butterflygirl”

Scott, I am very skeptical of alternative medicine, but my health insurance covers it, so I hardly doubt in this current economy, that health insurance companies would cover a practice that provides no benefit to its patients, other than a placebo effect. Like any western medicine, if you don’t believe it will work, it probably won’t have nearly the same impact.

— End quote

The idea that because insurance covers a practice means it is legitimate/effective is a red herring. Insurance companies are businesses. They want your business so if there is demand for acupuncture, they will cover it. Many insurers also cover homeopathy and other unproven modalities. They do so to attract business. It also helps that as these procedures are ineffective there is also little chance of serious side effects (which makes the actuaries happy as it means less chance of law suits).

Have a read of this post from Science Based Medicine. It’s not exactly about insurance companies but is related in that it discusses the licensing arrangments for these modalities. The author makes the point that regulated nonsense is still nonsense, there’s just a Board which certifies the nonsense.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-regulation-of-nonsense/#more-20937

I get extremely annoyed that my insurance premiums and/or taxes fund unproven treatments. At least in Australia the Government is starting to tighten up tax payer funding:

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/alternative-medicine-crackdown-20120313-1uyiw.html

38

In the middle of the 20th century, some doctors were recommending cigarettes and lobotomies.

Not for migraine. :shock:

But for various other health problems.

The power of persuasion, anecdotal evidence, and industries with deep pockets cannot be underestimated when it comes to pushing unproven “medical” treatments.

39

— Begin quote from “Victoria”

Have a read of this post from Science Based Medicine. It’s not exactly about insurance companies but is related in that it discusses the licensing arrangments for these modalities. The author makes the point that regulated nonsense is still nonsense, there’s just a Board which certifies the nonsense.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-regulation-of-nonsense/#more-20937

— End quote

That was timely! It was only published yesterday! :slight_smile:

40

— Begin quote from “scott”

— Begin quote from “Victoria”

Have a read of this post from Science Based Medicine. It’s not exactly about insurance companies but is related in that it discusses the licensing arrangments for these modalities. The author makes the point that regulated nonsense is still nonsense, there’s just a Board which certifies the nonsense.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-regulation-of-nonsense/#more-20937

— End quote

That was timely! It was only published yesterday! :slight_smile:

— End quote

I have my finger on the pulse :lol: !