Antiscience and ethical concerns - Lyme disease 2011

I do believe herbs are effective for certain health conditions. And I also believe certain herbs boost the immune system, where traditional antibiotics eradicate the immune system. I see an integrative practitioner. That’s my choice and my beliefs. I never said pharmaceutical antibiotics could not touch the infections. A lot of people use and need them. And I might down the road if what I am doing is not enough. They are herbs that a lot of integrative or naturopathic doctors use successfully. I also have a family member with Lyme disease and her doctor is an internist with over 30 years experience and he uses the same herbs in combination with antibiotics.

I was told my immune function improved based on blood work. I go next appointment in May to discuss it further and get copies for myself.

Hi Shelly,
Thank you for the clarification. This might sound like a dumb question, but how do you show on blood work that your immune function is improved? I would like to ask my doc to test my immune system more if there was something he missed. Are there specific immune system tests? I know about having antibodies, etc. Does that mean you now have antibodies or that you no longer show an increased WBC count (which I know I have had when I had colds, etc.). My doc is not a naturopath so I wonder if naturopaths know of something else.
Thanks!

I’ll find out when I go next month to my appointment. I didn’t see them in person last time, I had to call on the phone for test results.

I’ve been very happy seeing this doctor. Do you like your naturopath and have any of the treatments for different things worked for you? I’m new to this as of the end of last year, but I have found they give a lot more time and I like the idea of trying natural things first, but my doctor is integrative so they do both, which I also like. Before if I saw my PCP and I either couldn’t take a medication or it didn’t work, I wasn’t given any other options, so I like having other options to try. I do find they seem to know more about lab tests for certain things. The health insurance I used to have covered naturopathic doctors and I’m waiting to see if mine is going to follow suit. More and more insurances are covering it now which I think is great.

And yes, my WBC is back to normal after being very very elevated for years.

— Begin quote from “shelly3257”

I do believe herbs are effective for certain health conditions. And I also believe certain herbs boost the immune system, where traditional antibiotics eradicate the immune system. I see an integrative practitioner. That’s my choice and my beliefs.

— End quote

It really worries me when people speak about ‘beliefs’ in relation to science. That’s the language of faith, ie. in things which can’t possibly be proved, like the existence of God or Xenu.

Science doesn’t require any belief at all, there’s evidence or there isn’t. In asking you to explain how the herbs can fight an infection Scott was asking for evidence. You simply stating that you believe in them and suggesting that herbs ‘boost’ the immune system (what does that mean?) and that antibiotics ‘eradicate’ the immune system (also puzzling) without anything to substantiate this other than your ‘belief’ doesn’t really tell us anything.

I’m not here for a debate or to be interrogated, I was trying to be polite and answer what I could. No matter what I say, it’s always questioned to death, from my diagnosis to the way I choose to treat. I try to answer the best I can and it gets picked apart, while other valid points are ignored.

There are plenty of people who go to naturopathic doctors over MD’s because that is their preference. Is preference a better word than belief? I’m not here to nitpick words. Naturopathic doctors go to medical school just like MD’s do. There are books on herbal medicine, papers on them, some are listed on drugs.com database as to their efficacy for certain medical conditions. I know in clinical practice, there are cases where they know what works and what does not and I’m sure they learn their herbs in medical school, as well as pharmaceutical medicines as my doctor does since he prescribes both. In some cases they can measure what is working with blood work, such as me with my high cortisol and things like that. If you would like lists of medical studies or evidence on what herbs do what, I’m sure you know how to Google what you are looking for.

My choice is to try what I am doing and when I notice measurable results, not just subjective ones, I know what I’m doing is working. I ask others what has worked for them, just like we do on this forum and on other health groups like Facebook. None of it is to be taken over the word of a qualified doctor IMO, but it doesn’t hurt to ask opinions. It also does not hurt to ask doctors what has worked in clinical practice if they have years and years of experience treating patients. At the end of the day, it’s up to me if I want to try something and if it doesn’t work, I’m not an idiot, I would move on. If it’s working, I will stick with it.

Naturopathic medicine is also used for migraine management as I’m sure you know. If I went to my ND for migraines, he would say B2, Magnesium, Feverfew, Butterbur… Because I’ve asked him.

Every doctor I have EVER gone to said antibiotics have a negative effect on the immune system. They fight bacteria at that expense. PCP, GI doctor, neurologists, cardiologist, every Lyme specialist I saw before ending up at the one I am at. I always question everything before I decide what to do.

How about one person saying hey, I’m glad you found out you had these infections so they can be treated. Or that’s great, I’m happy you are finally having some improvements?

As an aside for the people wanting positive updates on people that were diagnosed with MAV and found out they have Lyme and treated for it, I have a family member also with Lyme (and Bartonella) that started off last summer bedridden and horribly sick, lost a lot of weight, could not eat, vomiting, “migraines” and vertigo, fainting, heart symptoms, swollen joints, fevers, sweats, severe fatigue, muscle weakness, to the point she had to walk with assistance, vision problems, and a lot more. She’s now out rollerblading today, gained back the 15 pounds she lost, has not vomited in over a month, vision issues are gone, is eating regularly, is able to now do her school work and get good grades again (cognitive skills and thinking), and has been off migraine meds with no migraines or vertigo for months. That’s the upside of what long-term antibiotics can do for someone with Lyme that does not respond to short-term treatment. She has regular blood work to monitor her body and takes a lot of probiotics to protect her gut and she’s doing just fine recovering.

— Begin quote from “shelly3257”

Naturopathic doctors go to medical school just like MD’s do.

— End quote

It sounds to me that you are suggesting that because a naturopath has to study that they are somehow on equal footing to medical physicians. This is not logical. My ex studied naturopathy in Sydney and I know first hand what it entails. It was nothing like the rigour or length of study time an MD must go through at university level – first an undergraduate degree (usually in science or medical science) for four years followed by a medical degree for another 4 years then followed by working under other physicians. To be a GP they undertake further courses as a specialty. It’s chalk and cheese.

— Begin quote from “shelly3257”

Naturopathic medicine is also used for migraine management as I’m sure you know. If I went to my ND for migraines, he would say B2, Magnesium, Feverfew, Butterbur… Because I’ve asked him.

— End quote

There is nothing interesting or novel about this coming from an ND. These things you list have evidence behind them albeit weak. Some neurologists suggest using these. It’s the rest of the stuff an ND might suggest that is without evidence. You need to read a book called “Trick or Treatment?” that reviews in detail what evidence exists for herbs, chiropractic, homeopathy, etc. Mostly none.

(NB from admin: these images link to products members have found helpful and at the same time help fund the site: As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. Thanks for your support!)

“Trick or Treatment”
More recommended books here

— Begin quote from “shelly3257”

Every doctor I have EVER gone to said antibiotics have a negative effect on the immune system. They fight bacteria at that expense.

— End quote

I’d like to see a mechanism for this and evidence for that statement. My organisation is running a national campaign about antibiotic resistance and smart use of this wonder drug. Never have I heard that a course of antibotics destroys the immune system.

S

Scott, I never said they were on equal footing with MD’s. It’s apples and oranges. I have my preference. The end.

If I have just gotten infected, I’d take the antibiotics. I do believe caught early, Lyme is easily treatable with a course of antibiotics. I have been sick for YEARS. My choice is not to take antibiotics right now but if I do not get well doing what I’m doing, then I will. I have had measurable improvements (including a cortisol issue) by taking herbs. If I had not, I would not still be taking them. If I do need antibiotics, my doctor can prescribe them as well as the herbs. He’s integrative and uses both.

I had high cortisol on multiple tests. I took an herb to help with it. I retested and my cortisol is normal.

I’ve already mentioned my white blood cells have normalized and my fever is normal for the first time in over 3 or 4 years. I have had some improvements. Measurable ones, not subjective ones. Therefore, I will continue to do what I see fit.

A good read here from Quackwatch on Lyme disease:

[size=120]Lyme Disease: Questionable Diagnosis and Treatment[/size]

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/lyme.html

Regression to the mean is something always overlooked by people using unproven remedies as evidence for efficacy.

— Begin quote from ____

[size=110]Much of the effects claimed by alternative medicine can often be explained simply as regression to the mean, and this plays a part in the anecdotal evidence used to support it. Many symptoms will come and go in an apparently random fashion if recorded in an objective way - headaches, for example, tend to disappear without the aid of any treatment over time. People seek treatment when their symptoms are particularly severe, like those on the cover of Sports Illustrated the symptoms are at their respective “top”. Regression to the mean, therefore, suggests that if symptoms are excessively severe this week, then next week they should be less severe simply by random fluctuations. If treatment is only sought when these symptoms are at their worst there will almost always be a coincidental recovery. This appears even if the treatment has no effectiveness whatsoever.[/size]

— End quote

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Regression_to_the_mean

S

Great find Scott. I still don’t understand how in the USA these LLMD’s are allowed to practice? Or even why they would practice beyond the money aspect of it. Thoughts? Seems like there is a lot more harm than good that they are doing.

I refuse to believe there is NO ONE that is helped by herbal medicine, and I know I use the Butterbur/Feverfew argument, but it’s true. There ARE people that get migraine relief from them. I’ve even had blood work normalize that was off for years while on herbal medicine. Symptoms that I’ve had for 11 years improve. They are not gone, but they are improved, and with how skeptical I am, I’m absolutely positive they are improved or I would never ever say they were. I’d be mad I wasted time and money on them and I’d be sure to let people know to steer clear. I don’t believe in homeopathy and watered down remedies, but true potent herbs, I do. And I’m sure I’m not the only one lol.

You can post all the articles you want, I go by what works for me. I spent all these years racking up 30 grand in medical bill debt trying Epley maneuvers, seeing an ENT for my supposed Meniere’s Disease, I almost had my ears destroyed with shots and brain surgery because they were positive I had Meniere’s Disease, paying for MRIs, every migraine medicine in the book multiple times, VNG testing twice, nothing EVER worked.

I have solid evidence on blood work more than once that I have Lyme Disease but more importantly and what is making me sicker are the other infections like the Babesia. It would be idiotic not to treat them, so that’s what I am doing. And I already stated if it does not work, I will try standard treatments for them, but I will not accept Post Lyme Treatment Syndrome when the CDC itself says they don’t know what it is or why some people get it and that it’s being looked into further. They also state Babesia is in the blood supply from donors, blood is not screened for it, and they don’t have any reliable tests to screen blood with it, so there’s probably an awful lot more people walking around with it than they ever realize. The Red Cross even states if you have “Chronic Lyme Disease” you cannot donate blood for the rest of your life and same if you’ve had any serious illnesses such as Babesia, but people could unknowingly have both and still donate and blood is not screened for it.

I know an awful lot of people that get sick once they stop treatment and then resume and feel better again. If it was not an active infection, how would that be? I’ve seen it with a family member twice. Until there is a test that shows the infection is one hundred percent eradicated and gone, and what is left is damage, I will keep treating it if it helps me. I’ve spent almost my whole adult life being sick from this and I want to feel better. Nothing I’ve done to this point has achieved that except for what I am doing now.

And about “LLMDs” I’m sure there are some out there that don’t know what they are doing and take advantage of people and misdiagnose. But so have traditional doctors by overdiagnosing people with things they don’t have like MAV and Meniere’s Disease. Some doctors are Lyme Literate and treat Lyme Disease longer term and they are infectious disease specialists or internists with many years of experience.

Couple of points from that article. “Lyme disease, when diagnosed early, is readily treatable with oral antibiotics.” Many people are not treated early, they are not diagnosed early, years and years go on like with me. It’s not so readily treatable at that point. I haven’t been specifically treated for Lyme Disease with antibiotics but three years ago I had pneumonia and was treated orally and on IV antibiotics for 6 weeks. The antibiotics should have covered Lyme Disease as well. It obviously did not.

Another point is that the article is about Lyme Disease and often people with Lyme have other tick borne illnesses that CAN be fatal that make them very sick and are worse than Lyme Disease. At this point, Lyme Disease is the least of my worries.

Lastly: “Many infectious agents can cause chronic infections or can be difficult to eradicate with standard antibiotic treatments. Unfortunately, it is often difficult to diagnose such infections and, in the case of Lyme disease, it is difficult to know what percent of cases persist in the form of chronic infections. Other possibilities for persistent symptoms include: autoimmune-like reactions in which the body attacks its own organs and tissues; physically damaged or scarred organs and tissues from an earlier infection; another tick-borne infection such as babesiosis or ehrlichiosis; and re-infection by B. burgdorferi [4].” Again, the study is about EARLY Lyme Disease. It’s another ball game when it’s late stage neurological Lyme Disease that’s been sitting there for 20 years.