MAV'ers triggered by computer use -- your advice needed!

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I am having this problem too. Iā€™ve been using computers for 30 years. Suddenly this summer I started developing vertigo whenever I use a computer screen. It seems to happen worse when I am under fluroscent lights, but it will still happen (more slowly) under good lighting. If I use a computer all day, I feel like Iā€™m on a rocking boat for the next 12-24 hours. It always fades in time as long as I donā€™t look at another damn computer screen.

I went to my eye doc and got special computer glasses. They helped a bit, but I am still getting extremely dizzy from just using a computer. I am 100% fine doing anything else, including going out in boats. The only places Iā€™ve felt dizzy are in front of a computer or in places that are lighted 100% by flickering fluroscent lights.

Iā€™m not sure what Iā€™m going to do. I just had a baby and now Iā€™m looking at losing my job because I can no longer use computers. Iā€™ve worked as a computer programmer since the day I got out of collegeā€“I really have no fallback position. Iā€™m really not sure what Iā€™m going to do. The doctors want to run multiple thousands of dollars of tests on me like brain MRIs and I suspect that they arenā€™t going to show anything.

This whole thing is just crazy. How can doing something that Iā€™ve been doing constantly since the age of 10 suddenly make me sick, when otherwise I am completely healthy?

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Finally a fellow programmer to share my pain (literally and figuratively). What language(s) do you write in?

I can echo your symptoms exactly. I have been writing code since I was 12 (on an 8-bit Atari, no less) and this past winter Iā€™m at work, hacking away on my keyboard as usual and WHAM. Been getting dizzy staring at computer screens ever since. The only upside was that I now have an office with a window so that I can have natural light as opposed to the fluorescent crap that most (all?) office buildings have. Frequent breaks help, but even with that I find it very hard to write code while it feels like Iā€™m out at sea (rocking, swaying, nausea, etcā€¦). I do it because I have a family and Iā€™m the primary income (i.e. I have no choice).

Iā€™ve found that doing activities that arenā€™t so intense are far easier and the dizziness isnā€™t as bad. Iā€™m not sure how many other programmers we have on this board, but writing code takes your brain to a whole new level of concentration. If I was just doing data entry I donā€™t think things would be so bad, but having to focus so intently while staring at a screen just sets everything off. Itā€™s almost as if my brain can only handle so much at once. It doesnā€™t help that I write in about 6 different languages (not by choice, a lot of legacy stuff plus a bunch of pieces cobbled together by a bunch of different people with no commonality) so Iā€™m constantly having to re-train my self and Iā€™m constantly switching gears.

Do you find things the same? Is it just the screen or does coding seem to make things worse? Can you get away from the lights at all? Work from home? Have you tried different screens? I went through a bunch of different things before settling in with something that at least allows me to keep my job.

Hoping the best for you.

Iā€™ve been a designer for the last 6 years and I think my latest version Macbook Pro might make my dizziness much worse. I used to have an older model Macbook with the soft monitors (for a couple of years) and I wasnā€™t really dizzy ever. Since buying my new Macbook Pro in 2008 I have had incredible dizziness/vertigo. Over the years Iā€™ve wondered about the effect of the new monitors on some people but was never really able to prove it as I do get dizzy even when Iā€™m on vacations away from the computer. However I do find that being on this computer can really turn me to toast more quickly.

Nope doesnā€™t matter what Iā€™m doing on the computer. Programming doesnā€™t seem any worse than just doing random stuff.

Itā€™s so frustrating. Iā€™ve been using computers for 30 years and now I seem allergic to them. As long as I stay away from computer monitors, I am 100% healthy. I can even watch hours of TV with no problem.

The lighting isnā€™t the problem. I can control the lighting where I work and it is good, with no fluorescents anymore. I got rid of the CFLā€™s and put in Halogen. They helped a little, as did my new glasses, as did my new LED IPS monitor. Everything helps a little bit for a day or so and then all the symptoms (rocking vertigo, numb brain) come raging back. It is absolutely maddening.

This whole thing started about a week before my baby was born. My wife thinks it is all stress and that I should go on anti-anxiety meds. I canā€™t believe they will do anything (I really donā€™t feel any anxiety until AFTER the world starts rocking around like a boat, and Iā€™ve never had any anxiety or panic attacks at all.) but I feel like I almost half to try them. I was pretty anxious about my baby, so I guess it is possible that I was freaked out, but itā€™s been over a month since the baby was born and everything is just fine. Well, everything except daddy canā€™t work and mommy gave up her career to stay at home and raise the kid, leaving us with no way to make any money.

I may have to figure out some way to work exclusively from home and set up a projection system. Not that I know that works, but I suspect it will. I will probably take a big paycut to do so and wonā€™t get any benefits, but seeing as I canā€™t possibly work otherwise, I donā€™t really have any other choice. I have an appointment set up with neuro-opthamology, but it takes FOREVER to get in with them so it isnā€™t until September, and Iā€™m not confident they will have any clue what the F**** is wrong with me.

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So here I am on my Macbook Air and within a few minutes the crappy feelings are hitting. Just looking at this screen is tripping me out. Itā€™s bizarre. Doesnā€™t matter if I reduce the brightness right down either. Still has the effect. There has to be a way around this. It makes me wonder what weā€™ll do 5 years from now when all screens are LED back lit.

S

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Wow! I know older CRT monitors set me off in a few minutes because I can see the screen refresh flicker. I use a Dell Inspiron laptop now with LCD screen and have adjusted well to it, as well as my older Apple PowerBook from 2002 (I LOVE THE SCREEN ON THAT! no glare or reflections).

Iā€™m so going to the Apple store now and test out the new screens they use. Iā€™ll report my findings later when I make it down there. So disappointing to hear this Scott!

Oh, for me smaller the screen seems better. My laptops are both about 15 inchers. My mother has a Dell laptop as well but itā€™s an 18 or 19? inch screen and I have a harder time using her computer. Itā€™s like my brain has to work harder taking in and processing all that extra ā€œreal estateā€ on the screen.

My parents also have upgraded to a humongous flatscreen TV. Every time I visit and if we watch TV, I have to close my eyes and just listen, I cannot look at it because the screen is so clear and crisp, too clear and crisp! Weird.

@JamieH - Are you saying you do not experience these symptoms once you leave the computer? Or does it trigger you and stay with you? The funny thing for me is I donā€™t notice anything off while Iā€™m actually using the computer ā€“ itā€™s after I get up and walk around that I realize itā€™s messed me up entirely.

Iā€™m saying that if I DONā€™T use a computer, I have no symptoms. If I use the computer, I start feeling the vertigo while Iā€™m at the computer and it gets worse the longer I use it. The symptoms then stay with me when I go away from the computer, sometimes for up to 24 hours if it was a long (8 hour+) computer session.

If I stay away from the computer for a few days, I usually get a day or so of symptom free computer use once I go back. If I keep using the computer day after day after day the vertigo just gets worse and worse until itā€™s like Iā€™m on a ship during a storm. I feel it the worst when I am sitting still or lying down. Ironically, if I am in motion (doing things that cause other people motion sickness!!) I donā€™t feel it as much. At its worst, it definintely effects my balance and makes it difficult to walk in a straight line (or at least it FEELS difficult). I have no ideaā€“I may be walking straight as an arrow, but I feel completely drunk. In fact, now that I think of it, the lack of balance is very similar to the lack of balance I get when I am drunk.

I am the same way. Just got done with a 2 week vacation. My symptoms were almost zip during that time, but 3 days back to work and the dizzies, head pressure and brain fog are kicking back in like usual.

All of this seems to indicate an eye component, but that is just coming from my laymanā€™s point of view. It does make me wonder a little more about the VHS connection. Hmmmā€¦

I definitely have this problem with my work computer. I want to ask for a screen/filter but I am just a temp, so I donā€™t think Iā€™d get approved for one anyway :frowning: Has anyone tried wearing tinted lenses while in front of the computer? Does it help? Today, out of desperation and on a whim, i put on my sunglasses and it did seem to help a little. Sure, I look like a fool in my cube, but at this point I donā€™t care. Any little bit helps.

Has anyone else tried this? Does it help for you?

Hi
I had my prescription glasses tinted with this new kind of tint that was supposed to help with computer screens and flourescent lighting. Waste of money. It makes no difference. I find when I am really dizzy and lightheaded wearing my sunglasses is the only way I get some relief. Now that I am back to work I wear them almost all day long. My coworkers are also kind enough to turn off some of the lights some of the time but unfortunately because I work in a medical office the nurses need bright light most of the time. Take care,

Karen

So I was in the Apple Store two days ago and told the guy in there that the LED screens screw me all up and he suggested that if I stick a matte screen cover over the iPad that it might stop the hassle. I thought that was a really good idea. I have a matte screen on my iPhone but that never bothered me even without the screen so I donā€™t know if that is key or not. The phone is so small that the impact is just not there.

But think about it. The matte screen will kill reflection, tone down the intensity of the display by about 10%, and soften the edges of text etc. It may just be the way to sort this nightmare out. With that in mind Iā€™m going to buy an iPad later this week and throw on a matte cover. Fingers crossed that this works for me and you guys too.

S 8)

For me, when it comes to new electronics, itā€™s the outgassing of the new materials that set me off terribly. We have to air things out before bringing them into the house, some take only a couple of weeks and some months. Computer components, stereo equipment, televisions, anything. They set off caustic fumes and sometimes you canā€™t even smell them. They are one of my quickest and hardest hitting triggers.

Guys, Iā€™m on a new iPad right now and I must say this is easier to handle than the MacBook Air. Iā€™m still feeling it though but am sure the matte screen is lowering the impact. I might not really feel the full blow though until later. What a cruel disease this is. This little tablet is AMAZING. Why do we have to suffer with this sort of crap? Itā€™s cruel.

Anyway, going to tough this out and hope it works somehow.

S 8)


Saw this on an Apple forum:

First You may be getting motion sickness or in this case simulator sickness. This is caused by a disagreement in your brain between what your eyes see and what your inner ear reports. Remember the inner ear is responsible for balance. So the easy flow of the scroll is tricking your balance center into thinking that you are moving when you are not.

One theory about motion/simulator sickness posits that it occurs because the area postrema portion of the brain associates the visual/balance discrepancy with hallucination. Your body associates seeing things that are not real with poison in the body and it wants to purge that. So you feel sick.

One way to help is to try sitting farther away from the screen so that it doesnā€™t fill your field of vision. Also, experience often helps you get over it.
You essentially condition your sensory centers to accept the visual input as ā€œnot harmfulā€

[size=130]Can your eyes make you sick?: Investigating the Relationship between the Vestibulo-ocular Reflex and Virtual Reality[/size]

hitl.washington.edu/publications/r-96-3/

ā€” Begin quote from ā€œscottā€

So I was in the Apple Store two days ago and told the guy in there that the LED screens screw me all up and he suggested that if I stick a matte screen cover over the iPad that it might stop the hassle. I thought that was a really good idea. I have a matte screen on my iPhone but that never bothered me even without the screen so I donā€™t know if that is key or not. The phone is so small that the impact is just not there.

But think about it. The matte screen will kill reflection, tone down the intensity of the display by about 10%, and soften the edges of text etc. It may just be the way to sort this nightmare out. With that in mind Iā€™m going to buy an iPad later this week and throw on a matte cover. Fingers crossed that this works for me and you guys too.

S 8)

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WHOA PICK ME PICK ME!!! Send us a pic of your new baby when you get it. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm iPad :mrgreen:

Some good news to report for a change comrades.

I bought the iPad just over 2 weeks ago now and I am fine on it now. It took 2 weeks to get here but suddenly one day, the dizziness wasnā€™t triggered. It makes me wonder if I could have eventually adapted to the MacBook Air but it would have been a much harder and more painful task. While the iPad screen freaked me out at first, it wasnā€™t nearly as big a deal as the Air was.

It may be that the iPad is a ā€œstepping stoneā€ to the next LED back lit screen. Iā€™m now feeling confident that Iā€™ll be able to handle a new MacBook Pro at the normal resolution these laptops come in. The Air was a much higher res and caused extra eye work (strain) on top of the very bright screen.

So anyway, YAY, Iā€™m loving the Pad and happy that I will not be destined to using old technology because of a screwed up migraine brain.

S 8)

Hi All,

Iā€™m another unhappy Macbook Air 2011 user who can not use his new computer because I get dizziness after short usage and visual migrane with headache.
And my 2008 MacBook white is OK to use for a day.

There is whole 13-page discussion in Apple forum:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1677617?start=0&tstart=0

They say that the screen brightness is controlled with making LEDs blink very fast and this might be the trigger. But keeping full brightness could be used for keeping LEDs on always. Downside is that full bright screen is killing eyes with intensity again.

Has anyone succeeded to avoid your problems with full brightness?

Yeah, itā€™s a real bummer.

It is possible to overcome some of this trouble though with sheer perseverance. I couldnā€™t get there on the Air but I was able to sort myself out on an iPad and the very first Dell widescreen LCD Iā€™ve ever used in my life about 6 weeks ago. It took a full 3 weeks to feel OK on the widescreen; the first week was very bad news. Two weeks on the iPad.

It was worth the pain though because I LOVE the iPad and the widescreen at work is brilliant ā€“ being able to have two Word pages side by side has increased my work speed.

There are just some things though that seem impossible to overcome and the Air appeared to be one of them for me. The visual impact was just too severe.

S

I will try exercise my brain by just using new computer only short periods of time in a day. And I will try to keep the screen with the full brightness - to see if it makes difference.
I found also program called Shades for Mac to kill the brightness with alternative way.

Will keep you posted results after a week.

Itā€™s been a while since Iā€™ve posted here. I am far from cured, but Iā€™ve been able to reduce my symptoms enough to go back to work programming, which is a relief for my family. Hereā€™s what Iā€™ve been doing that has been working:

  1. Iā€™m now on Nortriptyline, which I believe is helping at least somewhat. I seem to be able to withstand bright lights for longer without triggering now.

  2. Iā€™ve found two types of monitors that bother me less than others: IPS (in plane switching montors) and certain LED monitors. IPS monitors do not do the same color-flashing that some LCD monitors do to display certain colors. And some LED monitors do not flicker if you set them to 100% brightness. Of course, since my main trigger is brigh lights, I then have to go into my graphics card control panel and turn the brightness all the way down, but at least I know my screen isnā€™t flickering. The caveot is that almost all LED monitors set to anything other than 100% brightness flicker like crazy even though you canā€™t visually see it. My father has a really expensive light meter/oscilloscope for his EE job and we used it to check out monitors, and the LED ones are flickering like crazy in the 120-180Hz range when not set to 100% brightness. LCD monitors are inconsistent. My inexpensive Samsung LCD monitor flickered quite a bit. My old Dell flatscreen from 2003 had no flicker at all. I recently bought a Dell U2410 after having used it for a few weeks at work with limited problems, but I havenā€™t tested it with the scope yet.

  3. Iā€™ve been wearing these glasses when using the computer: migralens.com/
    Now I have NO proof that these glasses help me any more than regular old sunglasses would, but they had a pair that easily fit over your regular glasses, so I figured Iā€™d try them out. They absolutely are helping. Supposedly they are based off of a migraine study that showed migrainers were most sensitive to light at the ends of the visual spectrum, and these glasses are theoretically designed to filter that light out. I donā€™t know if they really do that or not, all I know is that they tint things rather green and definitely help me. Before the glasses and the nori I couldnā€™t be on a computer for more than an hour or so without getting really sick. Now I can put in full days and only feel maybe 10-20% of the dizziness I used to feel.

I just upped my nortriptyline to 100mg and Iā€™m going to stick there for a while and see if I can get a solution that works without me having to look like a fool with sunglasses on in front of a computer monitor, but in the meantime, the sunglasses are a hell of a lot better than medical leave!

Great news Jamie!

Thanks for filling us in on the glasses and the information about screen flicker. I never knew that about LCD/ LED screens until this thread.

One thingā€™s for sure, almost all LED backlit screens do me in. Amazingly though I am cool on the Dell widescreen though I had to suffer for 3 weeks to get there.

Cheers

It doesnā€™t surprise me at all that the LED screens do you in. Note that this is NOT a function of LED lightā€“LED light is indeed flicker-free. The issue is that they donā€™t know how to make the LED lights work at different brightness levels, or at least not inexpensively. So they way they control brightness on an LED screen is to duty cycle the LED light on and off rapidly. The longer the period of darkness, the less bright the light seems. They flash the light at a rate (120-180 times a second) that no one can physically see the flickering. However, there has been some discussion that people with migranes have a much higher ā€œflicker fusion thresholdā€, i.e. their brains are bothered by flickering at very fast rates even though they canā€™t physically see the flashing occurring.

My advice to anyone having problems with an LED monitor is to turn the brightness to 100% and then use a video card control panel to bring it back down and see if that helps at all. This wonā€™t work on every monitor, as some still flicker even at 100% brightness(my LG IPS monitor does not). This would probably screw up color saturations, so if your and artist who needs color purity Iā€™d go with an IPS LCD like the Dell U2410 (or better).

The reason IPS is better is that it can natively display all the colors it needs. The cheaper TN panel monitors (most in existance) use dithering to display some colors. Meaning they rapidly flash two colors on top of each other and your brain then makes it out as a 3rd color. Again, this is happening so quickly that it is impossible to see, but the theory is that the migraine brain can be bothered anyway.